Numisphere Podcast - Coins, Currency, Bullion
Welcome to the Numisphere Podcast, the ultimate destination for all things in the sphere numismatics. Join us as we take you on a an adventure through the sphere of all things numismatics, bullion, and collectibles.
Numisphere Podcast - Coins, Currency, Bullion
Whispers of History: The Odyssey of Coins with Matthew Tavory
As the clang of old coins reverberates through history, we sit down with Matthew Tavory, a coin dealer with a penchant for the tales told by shipwreck and siege coins. Remember that wheat penny you might have found as a kid and the rush of excitement it brought? Well, Matthew's childhood fascination with coins has navigated him through history's choppy waters, leading to a treasure chest of knowledge. Together, we explore the drama and urgency captured in the metal and craftsmanship of coins from bygone eras, which, like silent witnesses, recount stories of desperation and survival.
The episode takes a darker turn as we unearth a segment of Dutch history stained with political strife and bloodshed, featuring the de Witt brothers' tragic end—an event that still sends shivers down one's spine. From the grisly past to the precision of the present, I peel back the curtain on my days grading coins at NGC, revealing the art and science behind the process that distinguishes a Silver Eagle's grade. This is where history's whispers meet today's scrutiny, ensuring that the coins you collect bear the mark of authenticity they deserve.
We wrap up with the murky depths of counterfeit coins and fake certificates— a cautionary tale that underscores the importance of provenance when diving into the numismatic market. Our chat also touches on the innovative ways Matthew sails through coin sales using Instagram, a platform that's proven to be a treasure map for collectors. Plus, a quick detour into sports talk reminds us that even amidst the luster of the past, the present holds its own adventures. Join us for this numismatic journey, where coins tell their stories and history comes alive in our hands.
You can follow Matthew Tavory @ world_coins_south_fl on instagram.
PURCHASE A COIN FROM THE MARBLEHEAD HOARD!!
https://www.ebay.com/itm/296017896246?hash=item44ec0aa336:g:xVYAAOSwsKtlQSIq
New episodes will be go live every other Friday!
Follow us on Instagram: https://instagram.com/numisphere
Connect on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/numisphere
Join "The Sphere" - our exclusive Numisphere Facebook group: https://m.facebook.com/numisphere?mibextid=LQQJ4d
Subscribe to our channel here on YouTube and also on Spotify and Apple Podcast: https://linktr.ee/numisphere
Visit our website - https://www.americanhistoriccoins.com/pages/numisphere
numisphere | numisphere podcast | the numisphere podcast | coin deal | coin sellers | numismatics | numismatist | coin collecting | coin collectors | bullion | bullion stacking | bullion stacker | silver | gold | coin collection | coin shop | coin trading | coin podcast | coin show
#numismatics #coincollecting #numismatic
Follow us on Instagram: @ahcoinco
Connect on Facebook: @ahcoinco
Watch us on YouTube: @numispherepodcast
SHOP us at: www.ahcoinco.com
Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed on The Numisphere Podcast are for informational and entertainment purposes only and should not be considered financial advice. The content shared by the hosts, guests, or any participants of the podcast is purely their own opinion and not intended to be a substitute for professional financial advice. Always consult with a qualified financial advisor before making any financial decisions. The Numisphere Podcast, including its hosts and guests, does not assume any responsibility for any actions taken upon the advice given in the podcast episodes.
Hey, this is Colin with Numosphere, and today I'm here at the New Hampshire Coin and Currency Expo in Manchester, new Hampshire, and I'm here with dealer Matthew Tivori of World Coin South FL, and today I'm actually going to be interviewing him on his experiences in numismatics. So, matthew, if you'd like to take it away, and you know, fully, introduce yourself and talk about your background.
Matthew Tavory:Hi, thanks for having here Colin. My name is Matthew Tivori. I am a coin dealer from South Florida, particularly West Palm Beach. My specialty is shipwrecked coins, siege coins and other coins of historical backgrounds. I am a history student at Florida Atlantic University Go Owls you might know us from our crazy Final Four round or Final Four run and I am also a former coin grader with Numismatic Guarantee Corporation and fortunately I left that job at bright beginning of COVID in March of 2020. I went full time dealing on my own and I just really love coins in history.
Colin Horan:Yeah, so how did you get started as a collector in the numismatic world?
Matthew Tavory:How did I get started? So I started off when I was young, about nine, and my father has one of those old 1990s Dodge conversion fans and he likes to whatever he gets changed from whatever he was doing going through whatever drive through. He just put it on the floor and I found a 1936 wheat penny. I still have that coin. It's my first coin ever and that's how I really started getting the coin. I just went down the rabbit hole, naturally on my own. I didn't have any other family members who were collectors or anything and I just naturally shifted.
Matthew Tavory:My first start I was a typical young kid collecting. I did US coins, wheat pennies, 90% Morgan dollars, standard young kid stuff. And then really as I started getting older and I'm a very big history buff, I started like wait, these coins are very much tied into history and I can actually collect history that way. That's how I kind of shifted my focus from like your standard US collector to a more advanced world collector and actual historians, getting my dream history from Florida Lansing University I graduated from there in a couple months and wonderful combination of two hobbies and passions.
Colin Horan:Yeah, the shift into history and being able to collect almost like just living history. You know you can hold these coins in your hand. It's similar to me with ancients. You know it's same path. So getting into world coins, where did you first start, really?
Matthew Tavory:When I first started with world coins it was more just about like the history and the story behind it. So I kind of got into like shipwreck and siege coins, I mean those two. I mean it was literally holding a coin from the actual shipwreck, like I got one here. It's an eight real, recovered from the HMS Lutine. I mean that's not literal history there. I mean what are we doing here? It's literally from the shipwreck. I mean how can you get more literal holding history in your hand than that?
Colin Horan:Yeah, so, and I know you mentioned siege coins too, so I actually want to ask a little bit about the siege coins and, like you know why some of these were struck, or you know really just what are they?
Matthew Tavory:Well, siege coins is when this is. They're mainly minted between the 1500s and the up to the 1800s is a couple after them. But it was basically when these armies would be basically like mercenaries and they'd be hired by a kingdom like, let's say, france and Spain are going to war, or Spain or Spain and that one's going to war. You'd hire German or Scottish or English mercenaries to go fight your battles for you. And what would happen this happened a lot of times during the 80s Dutch 80 years war of independence is they would go ahead.
Matthew Tavory:The Spanish army would lay siege to a city and they'd go ahead and basically sit there forever and wait to starve you out. Or sometimes they'd go attack the walls and they couldn't wait so long. So the defenders inside they're not Dutch soldiers, they're mercenaries. They want to be paid. So they go to the commanding general of the garrison and goes pay us, or we throw open the gates and we'll let them pay us. So it's pretty when it's either pay your soldiers or get slaughtered by the opposing army outside. I think it's a pretty easy decision.
Colin Horan:Yeah, not much of a choice there. It's not much of a choice at all.
Matthew Tavory:No, it's not at all. And so what they would often do is, during different sieges like take an example of the siege and new work up in England they would confiscate all the silverware plates from the citizens and they would go ahead and melt them down into sheets and they would cut out little triangles that make the coins called clippies and they would go ahead and stamp them and say this is your pay. Now, obviously, this is, for example. Take a nine pence, for example. It does not have actually nine pence worth of silver in it, so like an IOU, it's almost like an IOU, this promise that helps you motivate to fight because you'll get your real value after the siege. You want your real value coins. Go ahead and successfully defend the city. It's.
Matthew Tavory:I mean, there were some siege like the siege of Leiden in 1574. They went ahead and actually made siege coins out of Catholic Bibles I'm not even joking about that, that's interesting and they actually skipped metal entirely and went to Catholic Bibles and it was done to actually piss off the very Catholic Spanish army on the outside of the gates, and it's a great way to make sure your soldiers don't surrender, because they're going to get slaughtered as well. Yeah, the funny part, actually, with that particular siege is those coins were only in circulation for like a month before they had to be counter stamped. Because there are so many counterfeits, contemporary counterfeits your barrier of entry is well, you all converted from Catholicism to Protestantism. You don't care about the Catholic Bible anymore. Rip out the pages, cut, put it into a circle, plant it, glue it together and strike it on both sides. So they started counter stamping it. Then there would be counterfeits with the counter stamp showing up. So they're like okay, forget this, we'll switch to silver and copper coins.
Colin Horan:With actual money. Actual money. No-transcript. So I understand you actually have some siege coins here too. Yes, you want to show them a few more.
Matthew Tavory:So we have one here. This one's actually kind of hilarious for reasons that will come obviously. Here Got 1709 siege of Tornai, seoul. That was counter-samp on a copper liage liard and it's great and NGC poor one.
Colin Horan:I mean, that's like the lowest.
Matthew Tavory:No, that is the lowest grade possible and actually at one point it was the finest certified, the lowest grade possible and the only one certified the poor one top pop, the poor one top I know. And I ruined it. I actually graded another one of these that graded up grading good four. All good things must come to an end. I know I kind of still get a good laugh at this one and basically what would often happen during the siege is they would take so a liard is worth less than two stew bears. So they take a worn out liard and they counter stamped it to make it two stew bears and promises. After the siege you'll get your real value in silver and we'll go hold it up for the camera here. This one's a lot nicer than a poor one. Ngc kind of the counter stamp grading system is kind of a little ridiculous. We can talk about that later. But this is a lot nicer. This is not poor ones like trade. Poor one with a counter stamp that is a week.
Colin Horan:Yeah, I mean, it seems like a very complex field to try.
Matthew Tavory:Not even complex, it's just kind of oxymoronic, like a poor one and a you counter stamp, like yeah, the host coin is worn, but don't grade the host coin, grade the counter stamp the counter stamps there, counter stamps and a you counter stamp. I just kind of laugh at that one.
Colin Horan:Yeah.
Matthew Tavory:Another one I have here. This one's important. It's not original, it's a restrike, but there are no original slept of this one. This is a 1534 Siege of Munster, medieval communist religious sex death cult siege coin that only has Bible quotes on it.
Colin Horan:That is a line.
Matthew Tavory:I'd say that three times in a row, fast. And I'd like to say I have a good friend who works for Appmex, the biggest bullying company in America. He's supposed to take a shot every single time I say those words in order. So, zach, I'd like you to take your shot of vodka right now. And that's a two-thollard yeah, yes, a two-thollard, yes. So this is the Germans, also off notes as a Vita Twayfa, a Tala or an Abaptist taller. And what happened is, during the German Reformation, an Abaptist, particularly under Jan van Linen and Jan Matthias, proclaimed that there will be the raptures coming and the devil is coming to earth and there will be a new Jerusalem and it'll be based in Munster. And they basically took over the town council, throughout the Catholic Bishop, and declared that it was all. Private property was outlawed, polygamy was mandatory. Is yes or straight from God? Hey, you didn't know it. Straight from God. Money was outlawed, even though they meant to coins. They meant to. Coins are outside.
Colin Horan:That's a very hypocritical.
Matthew Tavory:Yes, I know. No, it was just, and I think there was one was Jan Matthias. The citizens are getting restless because the siege by the Archbishop they've been under siege for like a year at this point in Easter 1534. He goes God has spoken to me and he has said that we will be delivered from the siege. So then he actually literally goes out the city gates by himself and is like trying to split the bishops army, like the Red Sea kind of thing, like it is like you shall like go away. And then of course he gets run over by the Calvary and killed. So Jan the light and goes and takes over and takes his wife, and that's where the polygamy part started.
Colin Horan:Yeah, why are they restrakes If it's like such a controversy with?
Matthew Tavory:you, I'm getting there. So eventually the Bishop took the city because I mean starving peasants first, professional mercenaries who's going to win? I'm one say professionals, mercenaries 99.9% of the time and they went ahead and melted down all the origin. I think there's a very few left and they go for a very stupid amount of money in German auction houses. And all the original founders Glingon Matthias was actually they were executed by being ripped apart with hot irons and their bones were put into a cage and the cage was put on the Cathedral Tower. And the cages are actually still hanging in one circuit, the Tower, to this day, I assume the bones are long gone.
Matthew Tavory:The bones are long gone, unfortunately. I think they were disintegrated by or buried in the 1800s, which I know as much as when I was in Munzari love to go and see the bones of dead Anabaptist. So all these were melted down. But then in the 1640s when the Holy Roman Empire, france, sweden, spain and other trying to negotiate the end of the 30 years war in the piece of Westphalia, these were restruct for delegates there and two toller was largest nomination then and these were given out to very high ranking members. My memory is correct. I believe these were given out to the highest ranking members of the Swedish delegation.
Colin Horan:Okay.
Matthew Tavory:But that's why it says restrike and it's assigned restrike. The back it says P at the bottom. There are some unsigned restrike versions known and fortunately they're not original, they're all. They're just restrikes by the midmaster was lazy or not decided to have his own recent, his own initial to the die, but still in their own way.
Colin Horan:There's a they're still very important to history? Yeah, absolutely they still have their own historical importance.
Matthew Tavory:You know what the treaty Westphalia and these are struck from the original dies from 1534. Oh, they kept them around. Oh, yeah, they kept them around some. I don't know why the Bishop did not destroy the original dies, but they didn't.
Colin Horan:So they just use what they had, they just used what they have.
Matthew Tavory:It's but funnels me sometimes. But you know what? Yeah, don't say history never gave you anything, yeah.
Colin Horan:And I see on the tail. Yeah, you have another coin of a similar one, but looks like a medallion rather than a taller. Yes, we have here a 1672 Netherlands metal.
Matthew Tavory:And you see from under the DeVitt brothers murdered. I jokingly call know this as a more interesting title Metal commemorating the time the Dutch murdered and ate their prime minister and his brother in organized cannibalism. That's another line in the house. Yes, and I said organized cannibalism, which I guess imagine organized cannibalism in your head there. If you've imagined that before ever hearing about this coin, I'd say there you might have some other problem, yeah, so what's the story behind that?
Matthew Tavory:So, the brothers, so in leading up to the 1660s, netherlands was in a very contentious place. They had basically what was effectively an elected monarchy under the House of Orange and when William the second died, his son was very young and the facto he was called the stat holder of Holland. He was basically the facto Prime Minister. Then Johann DeVitt basically passed a couple laws that said, well, my province in the Netherlands doesn't recognize the House of Orange as being in charge anymore. So he basically almost kind of abolished the monarchy, kind of like this weird limbo situation, and initially he was very successful and happy with people who liked him because he won the Anglo-Dutch war against the England for trade rights regarding the navigation acts in England.
Matthew Tavory:But then in 1672 there's an event in the Netherlands history called the Rampiaar, or disaster year in Dutch, and it involved England, france and the bishops of Moenster and Cologne, all invading the Netherlands at the same time and absolutely destroying the country. And Johann DeVitt was forced to resign from office and his brother, who was the I believe he was the chief constable of Amsterdam or Holland at the time was arrested. So he goes to prison to go visit his brother and get him out of prison and a mob forms and the guards don't protect him or his brother and they capture them and kill them and string them up and start cooking their limbs in organized cannibalism, not because they were hungry, but because it was meant to insult their memory and damn their memory.
Colin Horan:Uh-huh.
Matthew Tavory:And there's a famous photo of this, where they're strung up on the pole and their guts are sliced open.
Colin Horan:They're like an engraving. No real painting, oh painting, I think.
Matthew Tavory:I forgot who painted it. I think it may have been Rembrandt.
Colin Horan:Really yeah it was.
Matthew Tavory:You've just Googled DeVitt murdered, and there's, there's.
Colin Horan:You can't miss the painting, and then they made a medal to commemorate such an action.
Matthew Tavory:And they made a medal to commemorate, and my Dutch is a little bit rusty but I think the reverse says here the two DeVitt brothers were violently done in as they lived in the Netherlands, in us, in the year of the disaster. Oh sorry, my Dutch is better than mine which.
Colin Horan:I don't know any at all.
Matthew Tavory:My Afrikaans is a lot better, but that's hillbilly Dutch.
Colin Horan:I'm moving on from that. That's like very interesting. And you have the huge NGC holders. Oh yes, it is yes, this one is Graded AU58 by NGC.
Matthew Tavory:This one's an oversized PC holder is Graded AU55.
Colin Horan:Yeah, I wanted to get into speaking of, you know, grading companies. Your time as the NGC grader, and you know, slowly shipped into the Spanish colonial shipwreck stuff. But you know, first I want to hear your experiences at NGC Grader. It was definitely like a wonderful experience.
Matthew Tavory:It's definitely something different. I was hired basically almost straight out high school, went there for the test grading and did well enough to offer me a job, originally started off in Silver Eagles and Grading Silver Eagles all day 69, 70. See them in my nightmares, I joke. I need a t-shirt. It's like I survived whatever roller coaster. I survived Silver Eagles season at NGC.
Matthew Tavory:I remember when all the Silver Eagles first come out from the minute beginning of the year, everyone stops what they're doing, or almost everybody stops what they're doing and starts grading monster boxes as Silver Eagles, two with coins and 20 coins in them and there's 500 coins in a monster box and I think at one point I was grading them about a monster box every 40 minutes to an hour, yes, yes, and off camera say they're going wow, you poor man, you poor man, yeah, and I was not, and I think someone was able to do it accurately up to like 30 minutes made a monster box it's. You're basically looking at a coin. You're going do I see any scratch with any marks? 69 or 70. Very rarely you're really going to get a Silver Eagle, especially fresh straight from the main. Literally was the boxes were still cold to the touch because they were still straight from the mint on an 18 wheeler hauling ass down to Florida. I mean it's 69, 70.
Matthew Tavory:I've heard rumors where basically they put like 10,000 Silver Eagles on a terry. This half is 69. This half is 70. I wish that rumor was true. That would have saved me so much like grading.
Colin Horan:They actually had to take the time with it.
Matthew Tavory:They actually grade each single one. I know, I hear, I hear it all the time that rumor were basically 69, this half, 70, that half. Yeah, no, I wish, I, I, I so wish, but no, what is saving me a lot of just nightmares of Silver Eagles? How'd you, how'd you escape?
Colin Horan:So eventually.
Matthew Tavory:I got, I moved over to quality control, finalizing and basically my job then is I see every single submit, every single US and world submission, and I'd be making sure there's no. I was the last check before it went out the door. Is the grade at like reasonable and everything? I wasn't really changing grades too much. That point, Like if I called the coin a 63 and I was in a 62 order, I'm not going to change it. But if I call a coin like VF and it's in a XF holder, I'll flag it. It's like hey, this is what I grade this you can you confirm in the grade a while ago.
Matthew Tavory:Yes, I agree. You know what I agree. I don't agree, then they'll send it off, making sure everything's like accurate information. Bonds, like there's no coins getting mixed up in holder, is that kind of stuff, yeah, which unfortunately sometimes does happen. I mean, you get 18, you send it in 1875 and you get 176 half dollars sometimes. Sometimes mistakes happen, mistakes happen. We're only human.
Colin Horan:Yeah.
Matthew Tavory:Oh, some of us are, I don't know, some people in coins. Sometimes I wonder.
Colin Horan:I know a lot of those American silver eagle people that are the only guys I know, those.
Matthew Tavory:Libertad guys. Those are the word. It's an ounce of silver. Why are you paying for, like a reverse proof, libertad and they're beautifully designed. I mean it's a beautiful design, but I still don't understand sometimes the premium Everyone has their niche, Everyone has a niche.
Colin Horan:And then there's the mind agents.
Matthew Tavory:No yours is in the emperor probes.
Colin Horan:That's weird. Yes, the agents are normal. The emperor probes, why?
Matthew Tavory:Why not something normal like a rallying? What like? I mean, everyone knows a rallying and everything, probes I mean. I mean the Roman Senate went back and forth with the generals about who's going to succeed a rallying. I mean, how do we know? Probes wasn't the one that set up a rallying for the death, set up as his eight to camp to go live to the Praetorians?
Colin Horan:and kill.
Matthew Tavory:We may never know, it may not what history does know is how many licks it gets to take to get the bottom. But just see pop.
Colin Horan:Yeah, I guess, but also shipwrecks, shipwrecks I see you like that segue Shipwrecks. So I understand you have a lot of shipwreck coins here. So if you want to, just, you know, go in through and just explain some of them, you know, I know you have quite a few of them here.
Matthew Tavory:I have one on my neck right now. You're not truly from Florida unless you got a Gardi Gold change with a shipwreck coin around your neck, that's. I got a four real from Mexico on my neck. That was recovered from the 1715 fleet.
Colin Horan:I met David Crooks, who was the vice president and diver for the Mell Fisher Company for the Atosha and the 1715 treasure fleet. He wears an eight real similar fashion across the.
Matthew Tavory:You know I was like oh, wearing eight real. That's like it's kind of a little bit too large.
Colin Horan:Yeah.
Matthew Tavory:You don't wear an eight of scudo and then, like I don't want to go around looking like a Rob Liberace or something, but with these shipwreck coins here, you know what are, you know how are they recovered, or you know even you know.
Colin Horan:I want to know the grading of them too.
Matthew Tavory:Oh, yeah, it's well here. I'll take the example. This one's a local one that's taken about 20 minutes away from where I live. This is from the Jupiter wreck and from the son Miguel was named the ship sinking Jupiter Inlet in 1659. Florida, in Florida, yes, and it was a loan of visa or a merchant ship and it was traveling to Spain from, I believe, cartagena, mexico, and it had a lot of. It didn't have a lot of coins on it, but the coins I had were very rare. I had what's called the Star of Lima type coins which are thousands upon thousands of dollars and a lot of them were on that ship because it was an emergency issue Coins when they reopened the Lima Mint in 1659. And they struck them, they sent them out into Spain to go get approval by the king, but it never made it to.
Matthew Tavory:The ship sank. But this is a 1657 Bolivia 8 Rial recovered from that. It's a little decent quality. So, like this wreck, the way these are found, this the wreck was found in 1987 by a local lifeguard, peter Theo, and the state of Florida is very notorious for it. They can get their hands on it in any way possible. They will, they will go ahead, they will. They will go ahead and illegally rape you if they have to to get their hands on it. They did it to Peter Theo and the. Peter Theo actually won the case, but it was a nightmare.
Colin Horan:It was a nightmare, it was a nightmare You're death by lawsuit.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, the way I like to describe it. They did it to Mel Fisher with the attention of the 1715 fleet. Anytime they find any shipwreck anywhere, especially the state of Florida, anything to get their hands on. Look at the Black Swan project. A lot of people know it's a name that's shipped with the Nesta Señora de Nacetes.
Matthew Tavory:It was a Spanish galleon that sank in 1804 when a British warship sunk it off the coast of Portugal. It had tons of gold and silver on it. It was salvaged with permission by the Portuguese government and by I forget the name of the company Aquanauts or something of that nature in 2007. They send the coins to NGC to get slabbed. Ngc is like halfway through slapping all these coins and the Spanish government sues in Florida Court and basically says that is our ship, those coins belong to us, we demand the coins back and it went all the way to the Supreme Court. It took five years to go to the Supreme Court and they ruled in the favorite Spanish government. They sent all the coins on two Spanish C-130 military planes back to Spain and they're on display in Spanish museums right now.
Colin Horan:That's crazy. You know NGC halfway through, like the labor and the answer. I think more they were like 60, ngc got paid.
Matthew Tavory:Don't worry, ngc got paid, but still it's one of those like oh my like. The Spanish government is notorious they don't mess around when it comes to the stuff.
Colin Horan:They want their stuff.
Matthew Tavory:They want their. I mean, remember like these coins were being minted from, like mountains in San Luis Potosí and Bolivia and just giant mines in Mexico and goldmine sound Chile and in Columbia. We're talking mountains Like we're ungot billions and trillions of dollars, is just. They found a couple years ago the wreck of the San Jose, off at San Quintino 7 on the coast of Columbia, somewhere in that area. They found the wreck and here's immediately what happened. The Colombian government claims it, says it's in our territory of water. Two American companies were hired by the Colombian government. Claim part of it. The Spanish government's claiming it. The British government, which says some of the ships that sunk were ours and some of the treasured's ours, is claiming it. Two Native American groups in Bolivia and Peru are claiming it, saying the treasure was stolen from us by the Spanish conquistador.
Colin Horan:So is it all in gridlock right now? The ship's still under.
Matthew Tavory:The ship's still under it's. They're suing each other in American court, colombian court, eu court, british court and international tribunal court.
Colin Horan:It's going to be like it's never going to be resolved.
Matthew Tavory:It's going to be like a decade before this is resolved. It's just death by lawsuit, unless you have the money to go and survive this. It's like not to get political or anything here, but that's what Donald Trump would often do. The point's not to win the lawsuit, the point's to drive you to bankruptcy. To go ahead and death by lawsuit. It's that. That's kind of that's the point. It's a slap lawsuit. It's another name for it, no merit, but you're going to spend hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars and everything just defending it. That kind of stuff. I mean, that's what's going on with the San Jose. It'll be a decade probably before anyone sees any coins from that wreck. The example that's a new wreck on the market. I'm the only guy in America that actually mainly got it the SS City of Cairo.
Matthew Tavory:It was a British passenger ship that was sailing from India to England and had a bunch of Indian British rupees on it. Sank 500 miles south of St Helena. It was found in 2013,. Actually holds a record for the deepest sea salvage ever. Now it's at 17,000 feet. It was salvaged in 2011,. Announced public 2013,. They were salvaging it and what happened? The British government sued them and part of the court case was the British government got to hold on to the coins until the court cases resolved. Well, accidentally, some of the 99% of the coins were melted down by the British government and turned it in and they just took the silver Accidentally. Accidentally wink, wink, not not for legal purposes, accidentally, please don't sue me. British government. And when the salvors won the case they only got like 20,000 coins out. I think it was like 2 million or 20 million something like what are you supposed to do.
Matthew Tavory:They're like, sorry, like, and now they're suing each other. For the value of the ones in the British government.
Colin Horan:The damage is done, oopsie.
Matthew Tavory:Oopsie, sorry. And then like that's gonna be another 5, 10 years before that and who knows if they even get the money. Like it's one of those death by loss. It's crazy.
Colin Horan:I mean at least the ones you have here. Some of the other coins you have here are successfully recovered shipwrecks too. I mean you just had the one, the Jupiter shipwrecks, the Jupiter one. I know you have a word from them. Oh, I have another one here.
Matthew Tavory:You have an eight-rehour recovery from the HMS Lutine and that's the one that's actually got a really cool story behind it. The Lutine actually started off as a French frigate that was commissioned during the American Revolution and was part and did some minor commerce rating the Mediterranean and British warships during or British shipping. During the American Revolution and with the in the French Revolution there was a what's called the Federalist Evolition in France, where several cities revolted against the Jacobin rebellion in Paris. Quickly they were the Girondins and they took over the city of Toulon, which held the French Mediterranean fleet. They invited the British Navy in, so the British Navy went in and captured the entire French Mediterranean fleet. So guess who is the French general they assigned to go retake the city and it's his first ever time commanding troops. Napoleon Bonaparte.
Matthew Tavory:No way, yes, napoleon goes in, takes the heights over looking Toulon, sets up his artillery and starts bombarding the French and British navies over there. So the British took all the French ships and sailed them back to England and pressed them into the British Navy, including the Lutine. So the Lutine then spent all the way until 1799, part of the French, the British Navy fighting the French. It was originally built by the French.
Colin Horan:That's actually kind of interesting that that's another part of history.
Matthew Tavory:You can have it directly linked to a ship and that ship to Napoleon.
Colin Horan:Oh yeah, that's cool.
Matthew Tavory:And then so the Lutain was tasked in 1799 to carry a million pounds worth of coins to the Hamburg Stock Exchange to prevent it from collapsing. And along the coast of the Netherlands it struck an uncharted sandbar and sank down. It went down with all but everyone dying except for one survivor, and then it would be salvaged on and off again by the Dutch and then the British. This particular coin was salvaged. I don't have it with me. It had a little COA from the Voids of London who was the insurer of that wreck back in 1799. Well, in the 1930s and 1920s, because they were the insurer, they technically have the rights to it, and they started salvaging the coins from there.
Colin Horan:Yeah, and I want to actually, since you mentioned COAs, we'll show some of these other shipwreck coins quickly in a second, but I want to talk about the importance of the COA COAs are.
Matthew Tavory:I'm very OCD about shipwreck paperwork when it comes to this, and you should be. I can claim a coin is from a shipwreck. I can claim that this coin is from whatever the rarest shipwreck ever like. I can claim it from the widow. The widow is like one of the rarest shipwrecks that had coins on it. It's actually the only pirate shipwreck that had coins recovered off of it. Sinking Cape Cod I mean coins from the widow. Is that the Wellfleet wreck or is that a different one? Different one? Alright, Sinking Cape Cod in 1717 and it coins from that wreck on the cheap end or like $10,000.
Colin Horan:Yeah, I mean the importance of COA, trying to prove it, yeah exactly and they're all from like the salvage company.
Matthew Tavory:I have actually I've never seen a fake widow, so no one has to worry about that. I imagine anyone trying to fake a widow is not too smart, to be honest, because there's very few coins recovered off of that wreck. But speaking of fake COAs, there is actually an instance down by me in Delray Beach in Boca Town, florida, in the early 2000s. I actually wrote an article for this for Maritimes Shipwreck Magazine. It's a company called Gulfstream Marities. They would fake coins from the Atotcha 1715 fleet I think I'll try to remember a couple of the other ones, like 1810 Ford Pierce Wreck, couple other Florida-esque ones and they create their own fake COAs with it. They were either fake male Fisher COAs or their own COAs saying this coin's genuine.
Matthew Tavory:And the guy owned a picture framing company as well. So you always see the coins glued to a picture frame with this green picture frame and it's kind of his way is like so you can't see it's caspies, it's glued in there, you're not touching it. They kind of the company disappeared around 2003, 2004 and kind of disappeared off the face of there when I was doing my research, like trying to find it I mean actually the address listed for the business was a house five minutes walk from FAU. So one day I just knocked on the door. Hey is this? Is XO here. Sorry, he doesn't live here. Sorry, bye and like okay. So I know he doesn't live there.
Colin Horan:He does an investigative journalism, investigative journalism, exactly, I mean.
Matthew Tavory:But I often see tons of them down by me. I probably see at least two a month because if you don't know any better, you buy it in a picture frame. You don't want to break open this picture frame. It's somewhat nice, so you just accept that it's face value. And that's how I mean most COAs. You can't accept that it's face value. But the Gulf Stream, meridians ones are examples of bad actors. Unfortunately that's in every single hobby industry where he faked the coins and he faked the provenance, and I mean it's something we got to have like an IF for, to see like what a real COA should look like.
Colin Horan:And you know, I know, like NGC and PCGS, you know they have to have in order to grade it, to do that shipwreck, they need the COA or else it's just gonna be sea salvage.
Matthew Tavory:Oh, exactly exact. If you just send in a shipwreck point with the guy, send this in without the COA. I had a peak COA signed by Peter Theo, the guy who found the freaking shipwreck. But if you can have value, I mean I'll show you an example right now.
Matthew Tavory:There's some debate about these. In my personal opinion, is their counterfeit COA's, is there's a bunch of loose saying beach shipwreck points that got certified by NGC recently come with very suspicious COA is that no one's ever dealt in loose saying beach Shipwreck points knows about and every note the ladies popped out one day. And I'm of the personal opinion that they are a modern Contraption that someone just took none, just took sea salvage points and put the COA's to them For legal purposes. It's not definitive, but I that's my personal opinion, but I NGC slab. I mean I could be wrong but I personally do not believe that they're. They're good.
Matthew Tavory:I mean see, always are kind of like the Wild West, right, who says that it's got who's the salver and everything. But anyone Said we can make it. Yet anyone can almost make it. Basically, to me said, with the Cadillac of COA is, I mean you know, you can never question a sediccy away. That is like, yeah, the top of line COA, but like for a touch, it's Mel Fisher COA's for 1750s late. There's like a whole hodgepodge. They're Robert Marks. Mel Fisher said wick, um, it's Steve Hodges, it's, and there's a bunch of other littler guys.
Colin Horan:It's just another one of those extremely complicated. It's a exact exactly.
Matthew Tavory:I mean for Lucy, and it's like when I mentioned earlier that one was salvaged with permission both the Hamean government and spink. They come like those little flip cards and they come like the white clamshell box. Sometimes they haven't lost the box. That's what the original COA's are for them. Look for the Mara via shipwreck sinking 1656 off of Bahamas, grand Bahama. That one originally was salvage right by Robert Marks in the 70s and then Hubert Humphries in the 1980s and then they have. You see a lot of them now said with COA's it's just a hodgepodge of COA's, just kind of got near the market, got to learn.
Colin Horan:Yeah it's just just I mean and. I thought ancients were complicated field. But you know it just as an outsider. Look on to this niche. Really it's just complicated, but it's finding people that you know. You know, yeah, they could start the fuss and even then Fake COA's can fool people who have been in the industry for a long time.
Matthew Tavory:Oh yeah, it's. I mean I've seen COA's before that I go what? Like I had a call, someone like hey, just look at this, like am I missing something? This is weird. Like am I like, is this something kind of small little COA done back in the early salvage or something We'll say? There's a great book for the 1715 fleet on COA's by Robert Westrick and it shows you the history of COA for the 1715 fleet, which one's good, which one's the different types. Definitely go reach out to him and find it. Robert Westrick is the guy's name. He's excellent. He's still in, still doing shipwreck salvage to this day actually.
Colin Horan:Yeah, so I think we're starting to run out of time. So if you just want to quickly go through the rest of your, um sure, the rest of the shipwreck coins, just a little bit I do have here.
Matthew Tavory:I have a four coin. This is actually we're in. We're in New Hampshire, close to the board of Massachusetts. This is a brand new horde that just came out, the Marvel head Massachusetts horde. That's very local, yeah, very, very local. So what this was is basically old colonial house. Couple buys it and starts to do renovation on the kitchen and they find like a hoard of like 80 coins in the kitchen, like hitting underneath the floor boards. So basically, through research your stacks, bowers they found that the coins were actually owned by in the house we're over. The house is owned by a merchant who owned until like 1814, and so these coins are circulated in early America. I think some of the oldest coins are in the 17 maybe from your son the 1750s and only up to 1814. It's a lot of French, a coups, spanish and Mexican eight reows.
Colin Horan:Oh, what would have been? Legal tender?
Matthew Tavory:Yes, all legal time. This coin was legal tender in the US until 1857. Yeah, so Latin Mexican coins were legal tender in the US. So 1857, saving of Spanish coins, french coins, british coins this was all American currency at the time exactly. I mean this is America's earliest history. I mean now this coin doesn't exactly look too good because those in the ground for 200 something years I mean art longer.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, I'm not doing the math off time. I had a very long time. He kind of don't if it was in perfect condition. I think that raised more questions than yeah, yeah, but you can see it it was circulated.
Colin Horan:Oh, you know, it was definitely used in early America in commerce and you can relate it back to the specific merchant that would have used it Exactly, and I think that's a great example of early America, and that's not a shipwreck and that's interesting because it's a horde, exactly, you know, and it still goes. You know a row is. Most people know him from shipwrecks, but then you also have some of these other. No, it's like the horde. Early American coins America didn't?
Matthew Tavory:the American mint and sorry, officially the half Disney of the first point started minting in 1792? What are you gonna do for coins before? And you used what was example? There's some merchant tokens around the time, mansions, mill stuff, that kind of. I know Grasher to balloons are worth like crazy money, but it's like it's right, other than foreign coins. It came down like private merchants basically issuing their own tokens and coins. You should show some other coins. I have here the pickley love history With coins. So I have here in 1915, chihuahua, division del Norte, peso. Anyone knows their Mexican history? It's a poncho via coin. That was coin meant by poncho via to pay his army when he was fighting general Victoriano Peta and the Mexican Revolution.
Colin Horan:That's cool, yes, and it's nice, it looks nice.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, it's really 55 55 and actually I owned, I sold. Unfortunately about a month ago he also made another coin called a muera huerta coin Literally says death to Huerta on the reverse, and if you own that coin you're captured by soldiers loyal to Huerta If you lined up against the wall and shot. But that's another cool one. I mean I just love really nice historical points. Here's a nice 1675 Papal States Piazza. I'm minted in the holy year we versus got the religious iconography with the holy door in the AU 55 again. Yeah, I know, I just love a.
Colin Horan:Actually that wasn't even tension pulling out the mobile coin grade AU 55, but still coins of that age in almost uncirculated condition.
Matthew Tavory:Oh yeah, you know, that's a different story than you know.
Colin Horan:I go and say the marble had the marble. You know it's circulated, but this one, maybe someone put it aside.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, I'm on, collected it. Well, papal States coins particularly, they often come mount removed where people put them in bezels like yeah, on my around my neck here, and so it's kind of rare to see these. Not, it's straight rated, not not to be extruder either. Mount removed, freakin like here. We got just a really nice Mexican cap and rays on Mexican coins very popular right now but I mean gorgeous 1884 Chihuahua mint, mexico 8 real created NGC MS 64 bucks. I mean this thing flashes luster like there's no tomorrow.
Matthew Tavory:I mean this is yeah, yeah, from here, yeah this thing is very I mean just gorgeous, doesn't for a regional branch mint from Chihuahua? Quality was what quality exactly it's? And here last, quite right here, this is a really cool. Everyone loves the Mexican pillars, but not too many people put no other mint made pillar dollars Perumatum. Bolivia made them, guatemala made them, columbia and Chile made them. Though Columbia and Chile ones are.
Colin Horan:These are all right. Yeah, oh, this is the ones a 1770 below the other 70 a real.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, the first eight the first pillar, eight rows are minted in 1732 Mexico. I think the last ones were probably minted 1771 Mexico.
Matthew Tavory:Okay, so that's almost one of the last pillar almost so I think this was the last year they mentioned them in Bolivia, or maybe it may have been 1771 as well. I'd have to double check. But I know, like Chile, they like the way these, like when you took like mint, like Chile, bogota, they didn't just meant, they only meant, they only meant them in a couple years. The mintage are like 500, maybe max 1900 minting and it's like why it's like a very weird mintage, why they did they only meant them. Like one of they had got enough silver. He's Chile, columbia are very rich and gold but very poor in silver. So it's like after a couple years you get enough silver. You strike however much how many you have enough silver for. That's why I like the Columbia and the Chile and the Guatemala ones are very rare pillar wise and they go for stupid amount of money. I think a Uncirculated details, clean Chilean pillar eight real sold in heritage auctions of Like $60,000, something like that. Yeah, I mean some ungodly amount, and for a clean coin too.
Colin Horan:Yeah but I love how we still have these minted records too, because I know a lot of them are locked away in archives.
Matthew Tavory:But we still have access to them.
Colin Horan:So we actually know how many in these years they minted for the like the eight rounds for a house to rare you know all these different denominations.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, exactly, I don't remember the vintage for the 1770, bolivia, 8 Real.
Colin Horan:The Bolivias are generally. I know they're a bit rarer.
Matthew Tavory:They're a bit rarer, they're more rare. So it goes from common to rare, like Mexico, peru, bolivia, guatemala, colombia and the Chile. Yeah For the pillar wise. And then, if you want to continue to pillar dollars, the Greenland dollar, the Greenland Piastra, that's the Danish East India Company, meant to the like, I think, 19 coins as a pattern.
Matthew Tavory:I guess that's a trial, yeah, like the trial piece for Greenland, and they copied basically the pillar dollar design. I mean those are I don't think one's gone to markets since like 2017. It's like six figures, like I mean some ungodly amount of money.
Colin Horan:All right, so I think we're basically out of time here, but I want to give you a chance to first say thank you for allowing me to conduct this interview.
Matthew Tavory:Oh, thank you for having me.
Colin Horan:And you know, I think it's only fair. How would you give a plug to your company, your website?
Matthew Tavory:any articles. Worldcoins, worldcoins South FL. There's my company name. We're very active on Instagram, facebook and eBay. If you want to check out our website, it's link tree slash WCSFL, and you can find all the. I've given an educational talk for the Newman-Numismac portal. I've written Numismac articles, actually Numismac research, particularly on the sponsing double aureus or sponsing counterfeit. Well, or that one. Oh, yes, you are, I'm sure, as a fan of Provis, you definitely are. Yeah, how ridiculous of a counterfeit is. I wrote like I want to say like 30 plus page academic paper yeah, that's my thesis for FAU, which I think my professor kind of regrets a lot of me that I think it's. Dr Mugetshin now has the Matthew Tivori rule. You are no longer allowed to go ahead and pick your topic without like, like kind of popping up and say, hey, dr Mugetshin, can I go and do this? He's like, yeah, sure, yeah, you're okay.
Colin Horan:He didn't really regret that. Yeah, I would have done the same, but yeah, I think he regrets that now.
Matthew Tavory:Yeah, that's the Matthew Tivori rule.
Colin Horan:Yeah, all right. So I think I'll wrap this up, all right, and then my Instagram.
Matthew Tavory:It's worldundscorepointsunderscoresouthunderscorefl. On Instagram. We have like more 5,000 followers very active on there. So if you want to buy any of these, all these coins are for sale on there, on my Instagram, ebay, facebook. Best prices on Instagram. I don't don't judge me by eBay pricing. I got to charge eBay any attacks just because how many crazy people on eBay there is and they take 13% from you.
Colin Horan:But I always look through your stories on Instagram to see what's new.
Matthew Tavory:Oh yeah, my stories are either coins, how much the Tampa Bay Buccaneers drive me up the wall, considering that we just lost the bills last night and we somehow nearly pulled one out. And then you know what, if Chris Godwin looked up like a second earlier and just different historical stuff, yeah.
Colin Horan:All right, so this has been Colin and Matthew Tivori from the New Hampshire Coin and Currency Expo in Manchester, new Hampshire, signing off from Numisphere. Have a good one.
Matthew Tavory:Thank you.
